tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post1111219118676179810..comments2023-12-23T09:28:20.869+00:00Comments on The View from Cullingworth: Why Remain lost (redux)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post-37104274386717338522016-07-26T16:10:16.010+01:002016-07-26T16:10:16.010+01:00Came here from Dillow.
Excellent article, chimes ...Came here from Dillow.<br /><br />Excellent article, chimes with many of my thoughts, but IMHO misses a key point - Merkel and the EU commission.<br /><br />I was persuadable when the negotiations started, but cautious as the referendum itself weakened our position. Cameron came back with nothing, and Juncker said "there will be no reform to the EU". It was clear to me the EU had seized the opportunity to demolish the traditional UK position of half-in-half-out and in the future there would be only one way - their way. On that basis I had to vote out. To echo your old couple, my children would be in a political union in which they had no say and by that time could not leave (leaving is hard enough now and would only have got worse over time). Traditionally, only bad things happen to people who are powerless and have no choices.<br /><br />Remain's hysteria failed to cover up the main point - loss of control for which the biggest example is immigration. There have been predictions of the UK population rising to 80M by 2050. No UK political was able to give a coherent response on how this could be prevented whilst we were in the EU for the obvious reason there was actually nothing they could do. I'm honestly not sure what Remain could have done to address this obvious and brutal fact.DorsetDipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612884207485991011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post-47452059607033091322016-07-24T11:43:39.698+01:002016-07-24T11:43:39.698+01:00I had made my mind up several years ago. I see a p...I had made my mind up several years ago. I see a positive long term future being unshackled from the EU though I would appreciate a faster decision to trigger article 50. This is far too slow. We could be out very quickly triggering WTO rules and claim back our waters. Then we can negotiate and negotiate hard re quotas of EU citizens on a points basis (ie what use are they to us) as we deport all EU citizens on benefits and on trade deals.. Dr Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00176521760477086914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post-14610360544998661722016-07-23T21:48:29.470+01:002016-07-23T21:48:29.470+01:00Whilst accepting the basic premise, the key differ...Whilst accepting the basic premise, the key difference between the campaigns was the difference between 'hearts' and 'minds'.<br />The 'Leave' message played to the hearts, encouraging visions of the culture of an independent Britain in a Brexit future, whilst the 'Remain' message was the cold, clinical logic of finance and establishment, playing to the mind alone.<br /><br />We may be critical of the 'Leave' campaign's over-focus on immigration as an issue, but that was really about the future culture of the nation - did we want our culture further compromised by uncontrolled additions or would we rather reverse the trend. Similarly, the hearts were stimulated by the 'take back control' message - it didn't have any hard examples to offer, but simply the emotive message of being more in control of your own destiny, and that worked.<br /><br />In the end, those 'heart-based' messages scored far more highly than the cynical finance-based ones: something for which some of us will 'remain' eternally grateful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post-33837728994429217372016-07-23T15:18:19.297+01:002016-07-23T15:18:19.297+01:00Remain was on a hiding to nothing if they talked a...Remain was on a hiding to nothing if they talked about the future. If they claimed that things would improve, then people would wonder why they hadn't in the past 40 odd years. Why would Britain's voice be any more powerful than it had been so far - especially as even the threat of leaving had generated zero concessions worth a damn?<br /><br />The future of the EU looks strongly like being one or more of self-destruction, less sovereignty, dis-integration, draconian rule over failing states, a financial black hole, decreasing world relevance ... etc - with the "etc" being nothing good.<br /><br />I would suggest that most remain voters were naively voting for some sort of safe more-or-less status quo. Any serious debate about the future would have exposed that prospect as having zero credibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9172766774137902766.post-68322047277933264982016-07-22T23:13:58.798+01:002016-07-22T23:13:58.798+01:00Had you given any thought to the possibility that ...Had you given any thought to the possibility that many, many people who voted Leave may have already made their minds up about Britains membership of the European Union many months, days and even decades before they were ever given the opportunity to vote on Britain's membership?<br /><br />In many previous General elections the mainstream Political Parties failed to ever discuss changes in Britain's participation from '<b>Common Market</b>' to '<b>Single Market</b>' or from <b>EEC</b> through <b>EC</b> to eventually <b>EU</b> or, more importantly failed by default exclusion in their manifestos to offer the electorate a choice and thus a voice.<br /><br />Despite popular assumption the the electorate are gullible and can be bought with promises of health, wealth and happiness they People do have a strong sense of what Democracy should feel like in post-Second World War Britain.<br /><br />The People of today are the children, grand-children and great=grandchildren of their forebears who fought for freedom and Democracy in that Great War. We celebrate our forebears sacrifices every November and it does have impact.<br /><br />assumption is made that Parliament has Sovereign Authority but, actually, that sovereign Power is only invested in Westminster Palace for up to 5 years at a time and it is held by permission of the people who vote for their representative Members of Parliament. The ultimate sovereignty lies with The People i.e. the Electorate and is given to the current Parliament <b>only for the duration of that Parliament</b>.<br /><br />Thus, as Britain's membership and relationship with the eventual Political Union born form the original <b>'Common Market'</b> when, by subsequent to joining Referendum, the People voted to accept surrender of some Sovereignty to Brussels subsequent moves to greater cooperation and closer union through the Treaties of <b>Masstricht</b> and later <b>Lisbon</b> without asking the people, specifically, if they wanted Britain to surrender more of their ultimate sovereignty to Brussels a great deal of resentment built up.<br /><br />Finally, for various reasons, the manifesto promise of a Referendum arrived and many, many people knew exactly how they would vote when the date of the Referendum arrived.<br /><br />Alongside resentments of ever-increasing numbers of economic migration to the UK of Europeans who come for the money not to necessarily settle and become British and integrate, are/were resentments of a low-wage economy driven by cheap labour from 'abroad' and resentment of fat-cat Bankers and 'Financial Services' being THE industry that does the best from Britain's membership of the <b>EU</b> along with a long-held common view that those fat-cat Bankers did better form the recovery form the Crash of 2008 than the people who paid the costs of that Crash through almost everlasting 'austerity' measures.<br /><br />I believe many, many people knew exactly how they would vote BEFORE any campaigning occurred and from a marketing perspective the remain Camp, as Sellers, were selling a a product that was past-its-sell-by-date and the only buyers were those who are/were europhile and had already bought the product.<br /><br />The Remain Campaign simply did not know how much resentment there was to the European Union (nor, probably did the Leave Campaigners to be fair) out there among the people. Both sides ran disreputable campaigns in order to sell or try to make people buy Remain or Leave but I believe a LOT of of people who voted Leave did so with their minds made up well before the Referendum.<br /><br />Just something to consider as no one will ever know why people voted the way they did ... resentment, immigration, fear of economic Leaveaggedon, love of freedom of travel, europhilia, or whatever. The simple fact is that more people voted to leave than remain and, thereby, Remain (or Stronger.In) lost their wish to cajole the People (as a majority) to vote their way. <br /><br />I think they were on a losing wicket before the referendum was even promised and the Silent Majority have finally had their voice heard.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com